Cosplay New Zealand
Hi there! This forum has now moved over to Facebook. You can find us by searching for 'Cosplay New Zealand', or going to https://www.facebook.com/groups/cosplaynewzealand/

We'll see you there.



 
HomeHome  PortalPortal  GalleryGallery  CalendarCalendar  FAQFAQ  RulesRules  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  


Changes to cosplay contest

Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
View previous topic View next topic Go down
MessageAuthor
Re: Changes to cosplay contest
Post By Pseudonym. 29/10/09, 07:27 am

Too many contradictions here, I think it's people confused between it being a competition, and thinking that being competitive is evil...

It's a competition, if it isn't about winning something (even if it is just recognition on stage) then why even have a competition? It's silly to have a competition and then try to say "it's not about the competition".
If that is the case then why enter? Why have it? Why not just have a "Cosplay parade on stage"? Why not just have fun wandering around the convention in cosplay? If it's /not/ about the prizes as you put it, then why does it matter if people can only win one prize?


My point about "less than perfect" was not regarding someone who has bought a pair of op-shop jeans. (that's actually little insulting from your part).
There were lots of other cosplayers who had obviously put a lot of time and effort into their costumes and looked really really good. (I think most of them did get honourable mentions)

What I meant was if someone who spent only $600 and 60 hours on their costume wins one thing rather than the person who spent $800 and 100 hours winning twice.

I don't think this competition should become soley a competition about who can spend the most money and the most time on one costume. Otherwise it might as well become a silent auction. (Maybe it could go to charity)
(I also don't think that any joe-bum who buys an orange jumpsuit and dyes their hair yellow should beable to win either... zzz)

If their was no clear winner for one category, but there is actually a large(r) range of categories then people will feel less intimidated/annoyed if there is the odd double up. (Assuming it's not 4 people winning 6 prizes each...)

I would be suprised if it ever came to giving a prize to someone who looked like they were "under achieving" and if it did it might encourage more people to enter into the categories, and if the prizes aren't worth much then who cares? They got lucky, more entries in that category next year.


I'm not disputing that the judges have a lot of work to do and, I'm sure they do and illness always rears its ugly head at the worst of times, but they could easily have said "we forgot to have any certificates printed but we can get some printed and send them out to the runners up" - it really makes sense for everyone (i.e. winners and runners-up) to get a certificate, it's such a cheap easy keepsake.


My point about payment to enter was there only as a suggestion for covering costs if it was necessary (since limitations due to cost seems to be thrown around every now and again), I said if their was no money being provided then that might have to be how it is covered, I also said that if money wasn't an issue then obviously that shouldn't be done...


prepostedit* I do agree with you Riven, but at the moment the "categories" are broad, so it's technically possible for someone to win 4 of them. If Rowen had done a fantastic skit, she could in theory have been the best Techincal, best Individual, best Skit and best in Show. While that could technically be fair, its just stupid.


Edit** and my ideas about gag prizes were just that, gags, not categories for people to enter, nor something that might be there each time or just given to the person who best suited it.
avatar
Pseudonym
Almighty

Number of posts : 388
Age : 30
Location : Christchurch
Registration date : 2008-06-02

Back to top Go down

Re: Changes to cosplay contest
Post By neimhaille. 29/10/09, 08:50 am

Honestly, yes, there was such a very cut distinction between those who won and those who didn't. Did I look happy? Do you think that it's fun to have to say "no, these are not equal" and know that someone is going to take it personally?

This is why there is going to be a change. But there will not be a prize for everybody and there will not be a category for every genre- but there may be a division that is fair based on the kinds of artwork used (real vs cgi vs flat/traditional: making something that already exists does require different skills to something that may never be able to exist).

It is not about who spent the most money or most time but how that is used. It's a harsh lesson to learn that no matter how much effort you put in that it may not be good enough. I've learnt that myself in many contests. But the thing is also: it's only a one off. It's not about you as a person or even as a cosplayer, it's purely down to what was in the room at the time. It's a contest for a particular set of skills at one moment in time. If the contest were a month after then possibly things would have been different. Ditto if it were a month before.
I've been in contests where the prizes were pulled because the second and third just were not up to the same standard as the first.

The judges awards were exactly that, from the team and not part of the official prize pool. Angela and myself pay for those "lame" pieces. Quite happy to stop doing them if they are not appreciated. Really very happy. Already pay for my own accommodation on events I wouldn't attend normally. There is no prize for anyone on the team, we are heckled on stage, and are in between management and artists. Due to this there isn't even much in the way of the social gathering that so many of you enjoy outside the contest.
As for my health, I'm not going to go into it except to say I may not have much choice in the matter soon as far as being able to do any of it. However I have not yet let it affect the contest and I never will.
avatar
neimhaille
Armageddon Cosplay Contest Judge

Number of posts : 661
Age : 41
Registration date : 2007-12-18

Back to top Go down

Re: Changes to cosplay contest
Post By JVCA. 29/10/09, 09:02 am

I do see how I might have confused in my last post - the thing that makes the competition different from a show and tell, so to speak, is that it's an encouragement to push yourself - I know I would never make a costume like Rosa for just Hall cosplay.

The wording you used ("giving all the prizes to the people who are fantastic and put in heaps of time and money") suggested that effort put into the costume was irrelevant, and as someone who puts a heck of a lot of effort into their costumes, I found that really unfair. I don't think that money going into a costume should be a factor (hell, one could be commended for the LEAST money spent due to smart shopping - saving money on a costume takes more effort than spending money on a costume), but I really do think that effort should be the key factor - hence the comment about the op shop costume.

Your wording "giving all the prizes to the people who are fantastic and put in heaps of time and money" suggested that someone who spent 2 hours on their costume the night before deserves the prize just as much as someone who spent 100+ hours on their costume, which is unfair and thus what provoked my comment about the L costume.

It is clear now that that is not what you meant, but I felt it necessary to explain my comment. Regardless; I think we've both agreed that we don't think one person should be winning two prizes, so arguing this is just silly. P:

I'd like to reiterate what I said before: Effort really differs according to experience, and the great thing about the novice class is that people with less experience can be recognised for a lot of effort that went into something that might be considered 'easy' for someone else.

Quote :
I would be suprised if it ever came to giving a prize to someone who looked like they were "under achieving" and if it did it might encourage more people to enter into the categories, and if the prizes aren't worth much then who cares? They got lucky, more entries in that category next year.

Again, you have to keep the audience and the other contestants happy: the audience (to be frank) are generally a rude lot who won't think twice about speaking their minds, so if you give someone a prize when someone else deserved it more, they can get negative backlash afterwards - the crowd takes great joy in telling people that they don't deserve their wins if they don't think so, and as you can imagine that can be really hurtful. Meanwhile, other contestants feel slighted if they clearly did better than someone else but didn't get the prize for it. Again though, I do agree that multiple prizes should not be awarded to the same person with so few major prizes available.

Quote :
My point about payment to enter was there only as a suggestion for covering costs if it was necessary (since limitations due to cost seems to be thrown around every now and again), I said if their was no money being provided then that might have to be how it is covered, I also said that if money wasn't an issue then obviously that shouldn't be done...

I was aware of this; I was just passing my opinion on the possibility.

Quote :
Edit** and my ideas about gag prizes were just that, gags, not categories for people to enter, nor something that might be there each time or just given to the person who best suited it.

Again, I was aware of this too - but it's still extra work that the judges have to go through. I'm guessing you've entered the contest before, so you know how long the judging takes - it's not just the two hours that we as participants sit in the judging room and do our thing, but the actual decision making takes a good few hours as is - can you imagine how much longer it would take with putting gag prizes in too? Having said that, I do think it's a cool idea, but I just don't know how physically plausible it might be. HOWEVER, I do think it would be quite a cool thing for us (as in CNZ) to do post event - that way it's not just limited to competition cosplays, but hall cosplays over the event as well. :)

EDIT: I'd like to add as well - Michaela said at the presentation that "Cosplayers are people too" - well, so are the judges. It's just two ladies who run this shindig with very little support and they don't get paid. They get free entry to the event - that's it. I think you seriously underestimate just how much pressure is on these guys. :/
_________________
The Biscuit Brigade
http://kevan.org/johari?name=jvca
♥ Midsummer-Snow - Nana to my Hachi ♥
avatar
JVCA
Pronounced "Jay-vee-ka"

Number of posts : 7122
Age : 26
Location : Howick, Auckland
Transforms into : a crotchety old woman
Gender : Female
Registration date : 2007-11-25

Back to top Go down
http://www.jvca.net.nz

Re: Changes to cosplay contest
Post By angellsnz. 29/10/09, 09:19 am

Hi,

I have been watching cosplay at Armageddon since it first started, I have been a cosplayer myself for years. Maybe not in the way that we think of cosplay now (referencing only to japanese anime, manga and gaming), but as a person who "costume" "plays". I have been dressing up in costumes since I was a kid. I always admired those that had the guts to get up on stage and put themselves out there to either be admired, pitied, heckled or laughed at. Don't worry I have had all four happen to me.

Back in 2006, while M was still competing, I decided to cosplay and enter the competition. Truthfully the only reason why I wanted to do the competition is because of the support I recieved via the armageddon forums, and other from competitors.

I also knew that it would be a safe environment to enter into. I noticed the looks that people gave those that wore costumes around the Aotea Centre, and how they sneered behind their hands at them. I also noticed how protective other competitors were of each other, on the day of the cosplay competition.

When I won I was completely gob-smacked. I truly did not believe I would win anything. I remember feeling sad that I had not even made it into the top 10!!
I saw what everyone esle had done, and went wow, and then *shrug* oh well they didn't like my costume, and I needed to try harder!! Even though everything was completely new to me. I had not sewn for over 15 years. I learnt new skills and techniques, that were out of my comfort zone. But honestly, the sense of accomplishment, when I completely the costume and it held together, and looked good, gave me a sense of pride that I will never forget.

I now look at my skill level back then, and to the skill level that cosplayers have today, and I KNOW I would not stand a chance.

What I do acknowledge as the Cosplay Judging assistant is that I have helped this community to grow in some small way.

So that's a little bit of background about me.

As for the how the judging works, that's a completely different beast altogether.

It's all very easy to say how easy it is to judge, looking from the outside. We Michaela and I put hours and hours of UNPAID time and effort into making the competition look organised, and most of all for the competition to be fun, inclusive and nurturing.

As soon as one event finishes, M and I are working on the next. Every year that we have been doing this, we have continually revised the rules, looked at what worked, what didn't work. It's incredibly hard, as every year something outside of our (the judges) control would effect how the competition was run. These things vary. From holding the competion in Wellington in what turned out to effectively be a cold, drafty concrete floor garage, to having a sponsors demand that we had to have certain catergories, and that we MUST fill every catergory to give out the prizes.

So Pseudonym I will try to answer some of your comments that are concerned with the organising of the cosplay, and others are more concerned with judging process, and ultimately M makes those decisions. I certainly give my opinion but Michaela is the head judge, and there is a very good reason why she is.

Please everyone remember this is my own personal opinion, and does not reflect the view of the Armageddon Expo, or Michaela.

* We have always wanted to change the competition to include skill levels. This and last years competition just highlighted to us how important this is. The main reasons that it has taken so long is 1. We did not have enough people with such a high skill level to divide the competition and 2. we did not have the support of the Armageddon Expo management team to change it.

* Also changes must be made slowly, so it is fair for everyone. Now that the Armageddon Expo year has ended, when can now instigate changes that will effect next year. That means everyone in Christchurch, Wellington, Melbourne and Auckland will start on the same level playing field.

Why should we limit one prize per entry?? It someone did an awesome skit, and were a fabulous group, and no one even came close, then doesn't that one group deserve that prize?

* We don't give multiple prizes to people because they spent over a $1000 on a cosplay, you are right that is stupid. We gave multiple prizes because those cosplayers and costumes were the BEST in those catergories.

Why reward mediocrity? If you want to when a prize then, up your game, and bring it to the next competition.

* Yes we want to encourage people to enter. That's why we stay and talk to cosplayers at the end of the presentation. We are always available to talk too at the end of the competition, and we will happily discuss why you did or did not win a prize. We can also be easily reached via armageddon.cosplay@gmail.com

* Yes we give the prizes to those that put the time and effort into their cosplay. This does not mean that it has to be an incredibly complicated cosplay. Sometimes flashy is not better, we gave Best Technical to a cosplay that did a lovely tailored suit. It is a deceptively simple costume, but incredibly hard to get the fit and construction right.

* Organising certificates takes time and money. Now I have the time, but I don't have the money. Please remember we volunteer to do this. We are not paid, we do this because we want cosplay to flourish and grow. We want to encourage people to learn new things, and we also want cosplay to not be an after thought at Armageddon. Bill works all year round in organising the Armageddon Expo. It is a huge under-taking, and it is a measure of his trust in us, and the sucess that we have had that we are now allowed to organise this competition as we see fit! This is because we have worked inside the rules that were layed down before us, and wer have worked with the orgnaisers and not against.

* What I would love is to have Bill make up a whole bunch of certificates and medals for us to us over the different events. This may happen, but again this costs a lot of money, which neither Michaela nor I have.

* The first year we did honourable mentions, the cosplayers got nothing other than being called up on stage. All those envelopes that get handed out by us, they brought by M or I, we do not get refunded that. All of these costs add up.

* as JVCA has mentioned the prizes are not requested by us, we do not go to Bill and say, we would like x amount of ps3's or a camera etc. These are what are given to Bill by his sponsors. The same with the money as well.

* the easy fix of limiting the amount of medals. Why would we make the cosplayers pay for something that they clearly won! One year we had a group of close to 10 in a group, so if they had won under the idea of only 3 would get a medal, how stink would you feel if you were 1 of the 7 that had to pay for the medal you had won...now that is just stupid. I don't think any of them would be happy to split the payment for a medal they had won.

* Not to be picky but at the moment we have 5 prizes not 3. Best in Show, Best Solo, Best Group, Best Technical and Best Skit. This has always been plenty, and that's all we had last year in Auckland and there were 40 plus entries.

* Yes we have noticed that cosplaying is growing. For instance we were the bridge between the organisers of the cosplay games and Bill to help get that started.

* It's your choice if you want to go to all three events. I have noticed over the last year or so, the cosplay community has been creating their own events, I think this is great. We only want you to come to the event, if you really want too. Before I became involved in Cosplay, I used to travel to every event, because I wanted to go, I saved my money, and I got to see friends that I only ever saw at Armageddon.

* again as JVCA mentioned the catergories were reduced because of sponsorship.

* now I love all the catergories that have been listed, but it is incredibly difficult to judge in catergories. Unless of course you have a lot of entrants, then that would make sense. What doesn't make sense is if you only get 1 entry for say Best TV and it's half arsed at that, and you give them a prize because they are the only one that fits that catergory? That's just silly.

* Catergories = time - time that sometimes we do not have. For example.

Judging starts if we are lucky 11am. The cosplayers finish at 1-1.30pm. Then M and I or any of the other assistants/helpers will discuss and review who were thought were good or not. We go over forms, and pictures that are supplied by JP, impressions etc. We go over and over and over the entries, and then the winners are chosen. Sometimes we know immediately who we believe has won, other times we argue/discuss and can go into minute detail in why one costume wins over another. Then I have to organise technical stuff, helpers, the stage, the lists, writing out the little notes that we provide with the prizes etc. this again takes a long time. One year, a couple of years now we have been late to the stage because of the difficult decisions we had to make.

* I don't ever want to see an entry fee

* all the comments have been valid and I agree with some and not with others. We will be letting everyone know of the changes that we will be making.

I have not meant this to come out as such a long post, but I felt it necessary to reply. What we do is not easy, sometimes it makes us happy, sometimes sad or frustrated, but I want you to know that we only want the best for Cosplay.

angellsnz

ps please forgive any grammatical or spelling mistakes. I should proof read but I never do.
avatar
angellsnz
Armageddon Cosplay Contest Assistant

Number of posts : 199
Age : 44
Location : Auckland
Transforms into : I have one
Gender : Female
Registration date : 2007-12-16

Back to top Go down

Re: Changes to cosplay contest
Post By Amura. 29/10/09, 09:25 am

Dude, who called the prizes "lame"? They are soo not! Very Happy I think that even if we just got certs for best in show etc would be awesome! Very Happy Coz you can still say that you were "Best in Show" etc in yadda yadda year...Very Happy

Just remember guys, if you complain to much, you may not have it anymore...M is doing a great job with what she has! and we should not bite the hand that feeds us, so to speak...

The Armageddon Competition is the only Cosplay/Costuming Comp in NZ at the moment...We should be happy with how awesome it is Very Happy
avatar
Amura
banana in pajamas ;O

Number of posts : 872
Age : 182
Location : IPC
Transforms into : Lithium
Gender : Female
Registration date : 2008-12-29

Back to top Go down
http://elefantprincess.blogspot.com/

Re: Changes to cosplay contest
Post By Pseudonym. 29/10/09, 09:52 am

It is not my intent to personally offend upset or insult anyone. I am not disagreeing with the winners or trying to take anything away from them. I'm also not intending to insult the judges or underappreciate what they put in. The intent is that through input/discussion/ideas/feedback the new structure for the cosplay contest can prevent these issues from occuring (hopefully) and make the contest really great.

neimhaille wrote:
Honestly, yes, there was such a very cut distinction between those who won and those who didn't. Did I look happy? Do you think that it's fun to have to say "no, these are not equal" and know that someone is going to take it personally?

No you didn't look happy, and don't stop doing anything that you do because of what I said, after all I'm just a rude bystander . But the idea here is that things get improved, and you could go off and make a change and tell us how it is going to be. Maybe it works and is great, maybe it's not so much.
But maybe some of the people here who participate in the contest and also love cosplay/would like to enter the contests would like to share some ideas and give some feedback on your ideas. If there is a problem, i.e. there is no money from Bill/armageddon so you can't give out prizes/certificates, maybe the entrants wouldn't mind paying a small entry fee, even a gold coin entry towards the contest. (how many people would make up their costumes then not enter just because they wouldn't spent another $2? - I'm not saying this should be done just that if money really is an issue, it's a possibility.)

I am just throwing some ideas around, some critisism around, I hope for it to be constructive, I'm certainly not saying "you suck" I'm saying "this isn't working, fix it". Obviously you recognise there is a problem otherwise you wouldn't feel bad or "unhappy" about giving out two prizes to one person/group.

My first post was part rant, part critisism, part ideas. The fact that the cosplay contest is going to take a new direction next year is great, and means that we're already on the same page. I just really hope for it to be as good as it can be as soon as possible (err if that makes sense). I'm not a goody-goody communist who thinks that everyone should be equal and happy and get a fair share of the bread no matter how much time they spent making it. I just think that it will benefit everyone and everyone will have a better time of it if things are a bit more balanced.

The categories also need to be more spread out, otherwise they're almost set up so that someone should win most of them. I mean really, Rowen has been used as an example a lot (I'm sorry in advance) - she is obviously fantastic and has lots of awards/wins to show for it, I don't know her so I won't speak for her, but is she really going to be upset if she doesn't always win all the prizes?
There could also be a more ranked system. I.e. you have your best skit, then the top ten (or 5 or 29), the top group in the top ## is best group the top individual is best individual and the best of them is the best in show. Even Rowen can't win the 1st 2nd and 3rd in one comp!

The other reason I think that several categories should be made mutually exclusive are so that many people can get something without being able to be directly compared to one another. This should surely make the judging easier

Some costumes can be fantastic and accurate without actually requiring much work/detail (such as movies/tv/even some games) in comparison to some of the anime costumes which can pretty much have as much detail as you like.



I also like your idea Jess that "gag" prizes could be incorporated by the cosplayers like the cosplay games, however I don't really think it would be too much more effort. For the most part they'd be spontaneous, for example, someone enters with a well done really scary/creepy costume, so the judges think they could get a "most likely to scare people" etc it's not something they'd have to spend a lot of time considering or thinking about, just if it happened it happened. I'm sure that the judges already look at alot of the entered costumes and think "geez that looks like it's going to hurt someone" or "she's just so cute in that surely she can't be 20!". .... they could announce it on stage, I thought it would make things a little more fun/random, but adding that to something like the cosplay games event could work too. In regards to prepreparation, certificates need only have a template, the date, person, even the category/gag won can be written in.

I know that no announcement has been made yet, but maybe we can talk about things anyway, maybe we have some great ideas, heh, who knows.
avatar
Pseudonym
Almighty

Number of posts : 388
Age : 30
Location : Christchurch
Registration date : 2008-06-02

Back to top Go down

Re: Changes to cosplay contest
Post By Pura. 29/10/09, 10:21 am

I personally would rather have a medal than a ps3. Yes, ps3's are damn expensive, and if you have financial difficulties, half the prizes that have been offered before are hard to come by (specially if you've made an expensive cosplay xD - which can be bought little by little, bit by bit). But ps3's are also something you can walk into a shop and buy, whereas a medal or ribon for winning a cosplay contest, you can't. I'd feel much prouder winning a small, cheap, specially designed medal, than a comman camera or ps3 that someone in the world already has. A medal saying you won best category for this year is something that only you in the world has (or your group if you're in one).

I, too, also noticed that this year's cosplay contest had less entries. I heard around 35, when some years there have been around 50. But a lot of people have been cosplaying, and just not entering. For me, it seems like it's because we know we have no chance of winning (of course, this can be fixed by chosing a detailed cosplay and then spending months making it). I was cosplaying Monday, I could have entered the competition if I wanted to. Why didn't I? Because I know that my rushed simple cosplay would not be good enough. I'd rather spend a lot of time and money for making something awesome that could have a possible chance of winning - even if I didn't, I would have fun just knowing that I at least tried and had fun while doing so.

I do too think that one person/group winning multiple categories is a bit annoying. Again, why bother entering if you know someone will be better than you, and also win multiple categories? (aaaand again, this can be fixed by more people putting in extreme effort like this year's groups/people did - I'm in love with Rowan's Abel cosplay xDD;; I'm being conflicting with views, but I'm just pointing out things as I think of them xDD;; )

Lawl, I was going to suggest having the judging on Saturday/Sunday, and then the onstage stuff Sunday/Monday (depending on what event it is), and then realised that that would mean having to wear cosplays two days, and we all know how much we like to make many cosplays xDDD.

And I think one way to get the cosplay community to grow is for each group/person only winning one group, that way non-cosplayers can see the contest is fair (even though if the multiple winners actually ARE the best, then it's in a way fair, but people not in the know don't see it this way). I'll use Rowan as an example for this point - You could always have it that people can only win one category and then get erased for the chance to win another. Say Rowan wins best overal, and then when looking at best technical qualifiers, because Rowan had already won, then she can't win technical, but then have the next best technical person win. And then just chose the category that Rowan works best with. But then the winner of the one Rowan didn't get would then feel 'second-best' kinda thing. (And of course Rowan did deserve both places, but it almost feels unfair for other people who had very good costumes :/).

Again, sorry about conflicting views xD;;

I really do appreciate all the time, work and effort Angela and Michaela both put into this contest. The whole cosplay world and Armageddon make a huge part of my life (sadly enough. I enjoy it, so I see no problem with it :3). I wrote you guys card things that JVCA had, even if I've never entered the competition before xDD.
avatar
Pura
Optimus Prime

Number of posts : 5530
Age : 24
Location : Wellington
Transforms into : Coke blooded monster
Gender : Female
Registration date : 2008-01-02

Back to top Go down

Re: Changes to cosplay contest
Post By Narya. 29/10/09, 10:36 am

Er, nobody is saying the judges are doing a bad job, there's no need to be offended.

I'm happy to contribute to certificates for HMs if the problem is money as mentioned above.

I didn't see the point in cash prizes - what does $50 mean when your costume is worth hundreds? A $5 medal would be more meaningful.

Sorry Rowan to use you as an example again - but when is there ever going to be a situation when the best individual, or best group, is NOT going to have the most technical expertise? Why have a best technical prize at all in this case?
avatar
Narya
Le grande

Number of posts : 170
Age : 30
Location : Christchurch
Gender : Female
Registration date : 2008-07-22

Back to top Go down

Re: Changes to cosplay contest
Post By JVCA. 29/10/09, 10:45 am

This is true - one has to wonder, I guess, what defines 'best group' and 'best individual' - if it's 'being the group/individual with the best technical AND the best skit' then one wonders how one can be the recipient of both. It's amazing how much the definition of a term can change things, lol. It's certainly not a decision I envy having to make, hahah.

I also want to clarify here - I'm not ungrateful for getting both best group and skit - I really, really appreciate it (...I started crying when we got the second one, lol Embarassed ). I guess I'm quite on the fence on the whole thing coz I can see both sides - on the one hand, I do think we deserved it (sorry if that sounds greedy >.<), but on the other hand I also see how people might feel upset about the doubling up.

I think one thing that makes the judging tougher is how few skits there are - of 35 entries there were what, 5-10 skits? That means there are far fewer options for who to give it to as well. o_O
_________________
The Biscuit Brigade
http://kevan.org/johari?name=jvca
♥ Midsummer-Snow - Nana to my Hachi ♥
avatar
JVCA
Pronounced "Jay-vee-ka"

Number of posts : 7122
Age : 26
Location : Howick, Auckland
Transforms into : a crotchety old woman
Gender : Female
Registration date : 2007-11-25

Back to top Go down
http://www.jvca.net.nz

Re: Changes to cosplay contest
Post By seraphik. 29/10/09, 12:50 pm

... not going to join in the current debate, but longer skit times will always be no. 1 on my christmas list, as impossible a wish as it is. ;A; CURSE YOU TIMETABLING OF STAGE.
_________________


SUBVERSIVE GURGLINGS -- A COSPLAY BLOG || latest post: how to make a katamari head [katamari damacy]
LEVEL UP - a ke$ha's tik tok pokemon parody

h.d. theory.

'united we sew, divided we derp.'
avatar
seraphik
transient mod of fury

Number of posts : 4598
Age : 26
Location : germany
Transforms into : a post-graduate
Gender : Female
Registration date : 2007-12-31

Back to top Go down

Re: Changes to cosplay contest
Post By jpwise. 29/10/09, 03:55 pm

I'll throw my 2c in on the multiple prices per person/group. Unfortunately they are for the 'best', and realistically you can't take second or third best best and say they're the best in the category.

If hypothetically for example there were only 5 entries, and 5 categories, 3 entries were mid-high quality, the other two were wearing paper bags, you'd also have to say the 3 mid-high quality entries would take out the best in their categories, even if it meant winning more than one category per person.

But otherwise I was surprised it was only 33 odd entries this year aswell. I do have my own suspicions whether some people that may have intended to hand them in on the Midday-Sat missed out due to the queues on Saturday (at best reconning about 1k long), so it didn't completely clear until about 3 or 4 in the afternoon, but any of the forum members I'd expect to have given someone a yell that was already inside to get their entries in, so it would just be newcomers that I could see possibly missing out. sad But thats just a guess. Otherwise the new location and people standing back to see how things worked out probably contributed aswell.
avatar
jpwise
Souperman.

Number of posts : 3780
Age : 37
Location : Wellington
Registration date : 2008-01-31

Back to top Go down
http://gallery.of.geek.nz

Re: Changes to cosplay contest
Post By Rowan. 31/10/09, 02:33 am

Not going to make a long post as others (like JVCA, Michaela and Angela) have summed up a lot of what I feel.

But just one thing I've observed; there are so many different personality types out there that it boils down to the adage: You can't please everyone. I'm mentioning this specifically because some people have mentioned that they are hesitant to enter the comp because they have already decided they won't win. I'm personally in the other camp where not winning just makes me want to try harder the next year. My first year cosplaying I didn't win anything, and I can understand why. I admit I like to suceed at things, but that didn't make me want to give up. Seeing for the first time what quality of cosplayers was out there made me want to extend myself so I could someday be near that quality. It gave me the guts to choose a costume I would never even have considered, and I worked over a year on and off learning the techniques that allowed me to somewhat do the costume justice.

And still, even after I have become a winner a number of times, the knowledge that everyone is improving so much keeps pushing me to do the best that I can. Everyone who enters seriously inspires me, even if they don't win something, because to me cosplay is all about the effort put in.

I've never been involved in judging before, so I can't even imagine how hard it would be to make the decisions the judges do. I suppose the important thing to remember is that no matter what the judges to there is a reason for it, whether we are privy to it or what.

And also, just because it's a competition doesn't mean it's about prizes ^^; It's doubtful I would spend as much time on a cosplay as I do if there wasn't some sort of concrete deadline. And it's fun to compete against other cosplayers, no matter how nerve wracking it is at the time, and yeah it is nice to see how I measure up against others.

As always I'm excited to see what the changes to the competition will bring, and HUGE thanks to the judges for allowing this to happen Very Happy

(lol hope some of that was on topic)
_________________


Future Cosplays | Lady Loki - Marvel || Loki - The Avengers || Sailor Neptune - Sailor Moon || Rogue -X-men Evolution || Prince Gumball - Adventure Time
avatar
Rowan
LEVEL UP!

Number of posts : 1257
Age : 27
Location : North Shore
Transforms into : A free, free bird.
Gender : Female
Registration date : 2008-01-02

Back to top Go down
http://ladyarbuthnott.deviantart.com

Re: Changes to cosplay contest
Post By Tamoo. 31/10/09, 02:46 am

ILY ROWAN.

I am on the same page as Rowan C: And I have nothing more to say since everyone else has made their text walls.


Though I did not win, I am VERY pumped to try even harder next year >8D To be perfectly honest, it was only this year that I've been totally serious about the contest. Other years I just entered for the sake of entering. SOYES. SO PUMPED >8DDD


The judges are awesome and improvements are awesome. SO PUT TWO AND TWO TOGETHER? Yes.
_________________
2013 dragon 2020!miku / sailor moon / konoe / aladdin / kaya / pran
CENSORED COSPLAY
avatar
Tamoo
Supermod

Number of posts : 4525
Age : 27
Gender : Undisclosed
Registration date : 2007-11-24

Back to top Go down

Re: Changes to cosplay contest
Post By Mischa. 31/10/09, 02:58 am

I would not want to judge for all the tea in China! It takes me 30 mins to decide on a combo at McDonalds

My only suggestion is a "exhibition" catagory, for those who want to show off their costumes without having to enter the contest.

I LIKED MY CASH PRIZE AT WELLINGTON...because I got groceries afterwards Very Happy
avatar
Mischa
HOT DIGGITY DOG

Number of posts : 1045
Age : 110
Location : Wellington
Transforms into : GRIMDARK
Gender : Female
Registration date : 2009-03-15

Back to top Go down
http://www.doublestitch.co.nz

Re: Changes to cosplay contest
Post By Suixelo. 31/10/09, 03:20 am

Quote :
My only suggestion is a "exhibition" catagory, for those who want to show off their costumes without having to enter the contest.

This. Or maybe a skit only? So people who have comissioned or have simple costumes can have fun on stage too. Of course, I know it's hard with the time limit.

And everything Tammy and Rowan said. I am so excited for next year that I want to enter all three contests XDD <3
avatar
Suixelo
Souperman.

Number of posts : 3569
Age : 27
Location : Birkenhead - Auckland
Gender : Female
Registration date : 2008-03-25

Back to top Go down

Re: Changes to cosplay contest
Post By Selphiroth. 31/10/09, 06:28 am

As for the multiple award goes to the same group problem? Dare I suggest to use a ranking system BUT PUBLICALLY ANNOUNCING SO. For example, Group Ice Cream won both Best Dairy and Best Sweet, acknowledge both and annoy Group Ice Cream to pick the award they prefer. Let's say then Group Ice Cream picked Best Sweet, the Best Dairy then gets passed on the first runner up, in this case to the Glass of Rotten Milk Who Had Been Expired Since 2004; the only other entrance in the category. As long as this is done in the open, people will know that Rotten Milk is not the best in the whole lot, only the best in the ones left over, and Ice Cream needed to be acknowldeged as the best in both groups EVEN if only one award is won. Personally I also think that the group should have the picking right even if they can't take all of the awards.
avatar
Selphiroth
EPICLY EPIC

Number of posts : 552
Age : 117
Transforms into : Swiss army knife with a flash light
Gender : Undisclosed
Registration date : 2008-08-31

Back to top Go down

Re: Changes to cosplay contest
Post By JVCA. 31/10/09, 06:59 am

The main problem I can see with that system Shelley, is that Glass of Rotten Milk Who Had Been Expired Since 2004 really feels like they got the award out of "Oh, those other people deserved it way more than you did, but we can't give it to them because of the rules so here, you have it" - sometimes feeling like a 'placeholder' can hurt more than not winning anything at all. I do like some aspects of that though - with the introduction of medals or whatever instead, perhaps when there is someone who deserves both awards, the award that was given to someone who already had an award could be given twice? (if that makes sense)

So Group Ice Cream wins Best Dairy and Best Sweet, but because the award had been given to someone with two, Glass of Rotten Milk Who Had Been Expired Since 2004 can also win Best Dairy - so we could essentially have tied winners for one category? ...or something. Idek, lol.

RE TOPIC OF EXHIBITION: That's one of the things we've been trying to do with the cosplay games, to be honest - it's why we welcome submissions (skits) and why we do the cosplay catwalk.

It did used to be that you could enter 'skit only', or 'technical only' or 'both' but that got dashed either this year or last year 'coz it seemed kind of pointless - if you had an awesome skit then of course the judges would give you a prize for your awesome skit regardless of how simple the costume. This happens even with group sometimes - I think in '08 there was a Death Note group that got best group just because they were SO in character the WHOLE weekend and had a great skit, despite the simple costumes. The only problems I see with the allowance of commissioned costumes are a) it doesn't encourage people to push themselves and learn new things by trying to make it themselves and b) again, you have to remember that the audience doesn't understand properly how the contest works, and if someone with a FANTASTIC commissioned costume doesn't get a prize because they were only entered in skit because it was a commission, then you get the audience being pissy about it. @_@ Silly audience, lol.

TOTALLY agree with everything Rowan has said though - she puts it in much better words than I, but that's just how I feel. :3
_________________
The Biscuit Brigade
http://kevan.org/johari?name=jvca
♥ Midsummer-Snow - Nana to my Hachi ♥
avatar
JVCA
Pronounced "Jay-vee-ka"

Number of posts : 7122
Age : 26
Location : Howick, Auckland
Transforms into : a crotchety old woman
Gender : Female
Registration date : 2007-11-25

Back to top Go down
http://www.jvca.net.nz

Re: Changes to cosplay contest
Post By Narya. 31/10/09, 07:11 am

With everyone (including both judges) mentioning how hard this competition is on the judges - perhaps they could ask for help? Surely there's some aspect of the job that volunteers coud share?
avatar
Narya
Le grande

Number of posts : 170
Age : 30
Location : Christchurch
Gender : Female
Registration date : 2008-07-22

Back to top Go down

Re: Changes to cosplay contest
Post By Tails. 31/10/09, 07:23 am

Yeah I was wondering why there were only 2 judges this year.

I agree with winning a medal over money, you can hang a medal on your wall (FOREVER) but money disappears!
avatar
Tails
L

Number of posts : 3004
Transforms into : a Vulpix
Gender : Female
Registration date : 2008-10-06

Back to top Go down
http://www.facebook.com/TailsCosplay

Re: Changes to cosplay contest
Post By JVCA. 31/10/09, 07:28 am

I know that they do have a fair few helpers already (taking the photos, writing our numbers down, kicking out rubberneckers), but I get the impression that the hardest part is the judging itself - reading all the entry forms, understanding how the costumes were made, and making the decisions - and the key problem with helpers is that those who help with the judging really do need to be able to understand how they're made, and many people who do help out don't have the same level of comprehension through experience that Michaela does. I do wonder though; if the Trans-tasman thing continues, could the Aussie judge be recruited - or is there someone else within the SCA that would be willing?

The other thing we have to remember though is that Bill's not likely to be happy about paying for more flights/accommodation than he already does (from the sounds of it, he's possibly a little stingy on this as is) - financially, for him, 2 judges is better than 3, even if it makes life a lot easier for the judges.

Still, the certificates/medals/trophies/whatever could be delegated at the very least, I'm sure. :3
_________________
The Biscuit Brigade
http://kevan.org/johari?name=jvca
♥ Midsummer-Snow - Nana to my Hachi ♥
avatar
JVCA
Pronounced "Jay-vee-ka"

Number of posts : 7122
Age : 26
Location : Howick, Auckland
Transforms into : a crotchety old woman
Gender : Female
Registration date : 2007-11-25

Back to top Go down
http://www.jvca.net.nz

Re: Changes to cosplay contest
Post By Selphiroth. 31/10/09, 06:19 pm

JVCA, it is a very good point that you have raised there and as I typed my last post I did ponder over this. In the end I thought that it's probably not too much of a YOUSUCK humiliation prize and let me pull out my Dairy Fairy again.

Similar scenario, but to make it more like our Cosplay contest instead of having two contestants only now we have 12. Ice Cream wins both Dairy and Sweet category which are announced on stage; and Ice Cream picks Sweets. Then the Dairy goes to the next first runner up, this time it's the delicious Chocolate Milk. Poor Rotten Milk came far last; but no body knew that.

What you have stated as a very valid concern would only occur IMO if the award system is instead of the prize goes to the first runner up, it went to the Worst of the Bunch as a pity giveaway. In which case would be more like Ice Cream wins both Dairy and Sweet category which are announced on stage; and Ice Cream picks Sweets. Then the Dairy goes to Rotten Milk announced as the dead last and here take the YOU SUCK, and the actual first runner up Chocolate Milk gets nothing. That IMO would be plain wrong and should never be implemented.

And to further avoid any possibility of people getting a depressing place holder prize, what if on the entrance form the applicants are giving the option to tick the "would you like to be passed down as second choice in case of multiple awards went to the first choice". If they picked Yes I doubt they'd be too upset; if they ticked No then it gets passed to the next until we have someone who ticked Yes on the highest next ranking order. Only if there are no available second choices THEN the multiple award goes to the same top group. The way I wrote it seem complicated but really when it comes to the crunch, it's quite easily workable as long as there is a clear ranking system on the judging.

In case you are wondering, this is a similar (though not identical) system that functions in another very, very competitive situation that IMO works quite well. It does add slightly more work for the judges but IMO it is really just the work of splitting the entrance into the YAY SECOND CHOICE PRIZE or the NO I WILL NOT BE THE SECOND BEST piles.

PHEW. Oh. I STILL TOTALLY THINK CERTIFICATE IS GOOOOD.
avatar
Selphiroth
EPICLY EPIC

Number of posts : 552
Age : 117
Transforms into : Swiss army knife with a flash light
Gender : Undisclosed
Registration date : 2008-08-31

Back to top Go down

Re: Changes to cosplay contest
Post By neimhaille. 01/11/09, 02:43 am

The only rudeness was the heckling while trying to explain how the contest is judged ;) Everyone wound up losing. There is a guide on the Geddon forums for how it works.

It's not so much hard in terms of "gosh I don't know how to do this" but emotionally hard to make the calls. As an actress I'm so used to being turned down despite being runner up. I'm used to having to separate personal from the job. But I know that's not the case for everyone, especially when they are expressing a love for their character or fandom. So I tend to feel on behalf of those who don't get a prize.


To bring in another judge, or hand over, I'd have to know that they can fairly assess and make calls between a full suit of armour and a tailored jacket and a bias cut chiffon gown (all of which feature in every genre I've ever looked at). Ditto on a skit that was achingly beautiful and well timed/choreographed against a skit that had people rolling in the floors.
Because the contest has no real limit in that regard and it is possible that one day that will be the decision.


I don't ask to see the hems and insides of people's work for nothing. Facings and linings and that extra effort to detail and making a costume as well lasting as possible is very important. It is really obvious to me and those who have a lot of experience in this regard though less obvious to others. I don't want to make a "how to" list of things to help win and sadly this is what happens when there are suggestions on how to improve. That said I think I will write something in the thread I mentioned above about what I look for.

Personally I would like to see a main prize (because we will never lose that it does help get the audience in to watch) and a series of certificates/tokens that could be adapted a little. There are always snags with every way of doing prizes though. Either they are rigid and thus can be hard on an audience and contestants as we have experienced. Or they can be seen as being too flexible and people are getting awards just for showing up.


There won't be splitting along the lines of genre, as mentioned. However there will hopefully be a way of splitting along the techniques.
For example:
If you worked from a single image you have to employ additional techniques to fill in the gaps. To so this successfully involves a lot of additional research into the artist and world of the character.*
If you worked from CGI you often have multiple views and examples of the work moving through space. However it can actually be space or underwater or simply defy logic.
If you worked from live film you have a clearer road map but the fabrics and trims and metals really do exist and so recreating them more perfectly is another challenge.

Also while there really is no superiority to any one technique it is hard to explain to an audience what they cannot see- especially one that only wants to be entertained. Flashy tends to go over very well and the actual effort not understood. Having the ability to acknowledge all has been ok until pretty much this contest. The Aotea Centre was lovely for this as people tended to behave better in the audience too ;)

I had planned on making a public list on the Armageddon site for all the contestants and give the same sort of comment as the judges prizes have. I shouldn't even be online right now so just give it at least three more days.

Oh and the novice class will not be considered in any way the budgie class;- the same certs or whatever will be used. The same kudos the same kind of recognition.

When we do this then Best in Show will change and could be any of the other winners including Novice. Another reason I'd like to broaden the options. Too broad or too narrow though and we can face double ups again. One costume can be so outstanding in many categories, ditto on skits (yes I'd like to offer prizes on skit types too- and to reencourage the large groups).


Speaking of skits, while we do have limited time we are able to fudge that a little so watch this space for time changes. It won't please all but I hope to help some. Each city has different numbers entering so we have to go by the largest and work backwards from there for time budget.

In the past there has been very little wriggle room for formatting of the webpage. I am going to be asking about that too as the formatting for the rules miraculously looked as I hoped and so I'm hoping to have a better option for formatting the various lists (times place awards etc etc).

Also, trying to keep one toe in the past to make the contest a level playing field over the year is another reason things happened. Which is why it's on the cards now and not before Auckland. Some changes were already in development and some came crashing down this weekend.


The only non changes I can guarantee will be : forms in on time, safety safety safety and excellence will be rewarded.


*I have spent about four years researching a single city through it's records from the 16thC both written and painted. I'm still experimenting with how to get a look that merges all that information properly. More than that in order to understand it better that means looking 100 years either way right there as well as surrounding cities and countries and understanding the shifting political and social boundaries.
avatar
neimhaille
Armageddon Cosplay Contest Judge

Number of posts : 661
Age : 41
Registration date : 2007-12-18

Back to top Go down

Re: Changes to cosplay contest
Post By Selphiroth. 01/11/09, 09:21 am

neimhaille wrote:

The only non changes I can guarantee will be : forms in on time, safety safety safety and excellence will be rewarded.

So... My plan of making a functional flamethrower with a supersoaker, some flint and lighter fluid is probably a bad idea?

;D
avatar
Selphiroth
EPICLY EPIC

Number of posts : 552
Age : 117
Transforms into : Swiss army knife with a flash light
Gender : Undisclosed
Registration date : 2008-08-31

Back to top Go down

Re: Changes to cosplay contest
Post By JVCA. 01/11/09, 11:03 am

Selphiroth wrote:
neimhaille wrote:

The only non changes I can guarantee will be : forms in on time, safety safety safety and excellence will be rewarded.

So... My plan of making a functional flamethrower with a supersoaker, some flint and lighter fluid is probably a bad idea?

;D

Or my plan of bringing my metal Katana?
_________________
The Biscuit Brigade
http://kevan.org/johari?name=jvca
♥ Midsummer-Snow - Nana to my Hachi ♥
avatar
JVCA
Pronounced "Jay-vee-ka"

Number of posts : 7122
Age : 26
Location : Howick, Auckland
Transforms into : a crotchety old woman
Gender : Female
Registration date : 2007-11-25

Back to top Go down
http://www.jvca.net.nz

Re: Changes to cosplay contest
Post By Narya. 01/11/09, 11:04 am

JVCA wrote:
Selphiroth wrote:
neimhaille wrote:

The only non changes I can guarantee will be : forms in on time, safety safety safety and excellence will be rewarded.

So... My plan of making a functional flamethrower with a supersoaker, some flint and lighter fluid is probably a bad idea?

;D

Or my plan of bringing my metal Katana?



Or my husbands plan of my costume being able to electrocute people, including myself?
avatar
Narya
Le grande

Number of posts : 170
Age : 30
Location : Christchurch
Gender : Female
Registration date : 2008-07-22

Back to top Go down

Re: Changes to cosplay contest
Post By Sponsored content.


Sponsored content



Back to top Go down

Changes to cosplay contest

View previous topic View next topic Back to top
Page 2 of 4Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Cosplay New Zealand :: Important :: Announcements and Updates-